"Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy."(83).
These quotes taken from chapter 7 reinforce the theme of "the meaning of past and history and its relation to truth". Winston clearly shows that in chapter 7 that after all, although he knows that the Party is wrong and he is right, since the past and the external world "exists only in the mind" and the mind is "uncontrollable" he too is unable to conclude that the Party is wrong. How does the Party deal with evidence that people gather through their senses? What is evidence if it can exist one day and become "non-existent" in another day, is there such thing as evidence? By the end of chapter 7 the narrator informs us that Winston "was writing the diary for O'Brien". What is the value of this and why O'Brien? Orwell says to us that the diary would be like a letter that no one would "ever read" but it was addressed to someone anyway and "took its colour from the fact" - what does this mean?
Just before I write something, I really like the quotes that you picked because they are interesting and they represent Winston's conflicts within himself.
ReplyDeleteI do think that evidence exists, as long as it actually does exist. Since it is really hard to prove anything without evidence. In this world, people are tempt to say anything, as long as it validates their actions. Just like the Party does. People are always scared to admit that they did something wrong, this is the reason why people lie. In order to hide the truth. This also what the Party does, even though it is on purpose.
People always need evidence in order to actually believe something, with the only exception for religion. For example, in science prove is always needed in order to convince other scientist that something is really true. Evidence is not evidence anymore when it is destroyed. Winston probably made the safe decision by destroying, yet also a stupid decision. Since all evidence is destroyed, no one knows whether their memory is playing with their mind or that it is actually true.
I think you made a really good point saying that when evidence is destroyed, people are not sure if their memory is accurate/real due to the control of the Party. Really in my opinion if the Party can control the people's minds fully (memory, emotions...) they can control anything. I thought it was interesting how they gave the example of the mathematical equations.
DeleteThe last question that So Jung asked about Winston's diary is a really good question, and I was not sure exactly if I was right. Winston states that nobody can read it, but as So Jung stated, it is clearly addressed to someone.I believe that the diary is addressed not only to O'Brien, but to the future. The future being the people like Winston and O'Brien that are against this Party, and that will on their side to revolt against it. It will only be for the eyes that will not betray him.
Helen - I like the link you made between scientific investigation and the system described in 1984. It is indeed intriguing and a bit ironic to think about how in our world today new evidence is collected on a daily basis to validate or disprove theories, while in Oceania evidence is faked to fit a theory.
DeleteRabea - Do you think that an audience is necessary for the continuation of the diary? While addressing it to O'Brien and using him as a moral backup, could it be that Winston is ultimately using the diary as a valve to get all the unsaid thoughts down on paper to not only show opposition but also to maintain sanity?
Georg- I am not sure if it is addressed to someone (like an audience), but I was saying if it were, it would be to people showing the same opposition as he is.
DeleteI agree as well. The quotes are well picked support your argument involving Winston’s conflict. Throughout the book so far we are introduced to the Party’s manipulation and control over the society.
ReplyDeleteEvidence is crucial and needed to prove “fact” or accuse someone of a crime. In the novel, people gather evidence through what they see or hear in the city or through the telescreens. For the evidence that can exist one day, and not the other, Winston talks about a photograph and agents on page 82-83 explaining how it might have been evidence in the past, but through time, it has not anymore.
It is hard to really conclude as something being a piece of evidence. Due to the bias in language, culture, and religion as Helen stated, people can misinterpret certain aspects of a proof provided. It would affect its purpose, therefore as well as its use towards a certain case.
O’Brien is a character in the novel, which we are informed that Winston does not know much about, but he believes that O’Brien is an individual that is against the Party’s ideals. O’Brien also seems to be independent and conscious, which is similar in-fact to Winston’s character. This might foreshadow a joining force between the two characters against the absolute power of the Party.
This is exactly what I was hoping our discussion would be about. I found that part of the novel the most interesting in everything that we have read. Personally after reading those few last pages of chapter 7, I felt as if I was reading something coming out of our Theory of Knowledge textbook. The context of that chapter arises a lot of questions and opinions that I had.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I find it particularly frustrating how Winston contradicts himself. He is definitely out of the ordinary and is not a loyal member of Oceania. He understands what is going on around him and is very careful at what he does. For example when he realizes that the dark-haired girl has been watching him. He may not realize it as rapidly, but he still understands his surroundings. Winston is a very intelligent man, which plays well as an advantage, because he is not absorbed by the brotherhood propaganda, but at the same time, a disadvantage because being too smart is not desirable. He illustrates much deep knowledge, but that could get him killed, like what he said about Syme, "Unquestionably, Syme will be vaporized..." (58). He said this about Syme because Syme was too smart for his own good. He knew too much, and was not careful, he possessed a sense of stupidity and carelessness, that could have gotten him killed. This is the same situation for WInston, except he is not that careless. Therefore, it frustrates me how his thinking affects and blurs his perception of reality.
Relating to the question proposed by So Jung about evidence. The points made by Rabea and Helen are very persuasive and is what I think as well. I think that evidence is crucial to prove something to be a fact, and that's what the brotherhood does. They evaporate any evidence that is threatening to the brotherhood. I think that this is why Winston is different from all the other characters. Winston, being a worker for INGSOC, specifically the person who deals with exposing all the evidence, the amount of truth that he discovers intensifies. The more he works at INGSOC, the more evidence he disposes of, the more truth is revealed to himself, reinforcing the theme, "the meaning of past and history and its relation to truth".
What I find to be very interesting is that he works for the party in order to change the facts, he is changing the facts himself and destroying the evidence and yet he is the one who still wonders. Of course i find him to be very advanced intellectually compared to his other "comrades" however I feel he should more than just wonder but instead know that these facts are being altered as he is the one who alters them.
ReplyDeleteI understand why Winston would be confused, because what he sees with his eyes may very well be a dream or a daydream. He can not think of the past and how the past was because he might confuse it with what he wants the past to be like or what he might have dreamed of the past. Without hard evidence or proof of what he believes to be true, his thoughts are nothing and what he thinks he knows suddenly changes to what he thinks. He does believe hard evidence is somewhat futile because it will be destroyed in a matter of moments after its discovery. However what I do believe is that he will start to become more aware of his surroundings once he documents his life and his past. He is creating his own evidence so that what he knows stays as knowledge and history to him is not alterable.